Forums - CvS2 Eagle v. Blanka matchup Show all 56 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- CvS2 Eagle v. Blanka matchup (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56390) Posted by Viscant on 03:05:2002 07:35 AM: CvS2 Eagle v. Blanka matchup Since I started playing team Manlove (pick out 3 in Eagle, Rock, Benimaru, Vega), I've had to play Eagle a lot more. And if I had a nickel for every time someone said that Eagle beats Blanka, I'd already retire. What is it that people are seeing here. As I see it, Eagle has a LOT of trouble with Blanka in his strongest area, the mid to outermid poke range. Blanka's one of the very few characters who can go both mid and low from considerable distance making countering risky (as opposed to vs. Cammy or someone else who has few low options outside of in close). FAR less damage, less anti-air options, worse jumpins (Blanka gets an easier jump game). I can't think of a single area outside of A combo vs. super where Eagle ever holds advantage on Blanka. Starting to believe that Eagle's just another in the long line of characters who seem to do OK on Blanka but don't actually deliver. Thoughts? --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Yumi Saotome on 03:05:2002 08:16 AM: I kinda agree. At best Eagle does OK against Blanka....but it's more tilted toward Blanka. I think the best bet with Eagle in that matchup is to turtle like mad. C. Strong is a good poke to use against Blanka. Counter may not be such a good idea, because you eat a free super if you screw up. However, I'm not quite sure what good anti air, outside of that spinning super, lets Eagle fend off Blanka. C.Fierce is too slow sometimes and jump straight up strong loses sometimes. Not a fun fight...but I think with patience (from my experience), it's tenable. I think Vega, Vice, and Hibiki make better Anti-Blankas. Or Haohamaru...but that matchup is VERY random. Posted by znzf on 03:05:2002 01:16 PM: vice is good versus blanka? huh?! ok.. well my view is that my entire team should techniquely if played perfectly should destroy and blanka users nakoruru/chun li/ hibiki (or blanka) Posted by TrueNewbiePR on 03:05:2002 01:35 PM: ok first of all eagle owns blanka because it has priorites like kyo and other snk characters blanka is like cable ok??? eagle has too many counters like rock or geese and they own blanka for good also trust me i have seen blanka players a good anti blanka is vice hibiki nakoruru sagat ken and many more sorry i forgot the list but viscant if u r a really good rushdowner like me u can own anyone of anti-blanka i forgot something: be careful with blanka c.fierce thats onyl what players do no offense to blanka players but he just sucks to me ok???cable users!!! Posted by cheese_master on 03:05:2002 02:06 PM: I don't know all the details of Eagle vs a very good Blanka. But if you want a more deep answer, ask Nelson... he supposedly starts Eagle vs Blankas. But here are the specifics that I know off... 1. Eagle's pokes seem to beat most of Blanka's most used pokes. 2. Eagle's mid counter stops the slide and Blanka's pokes... but I don't recommend using his counters... because they got the Hibiki property. 3. Eagle has good two EZ mode AA versus most of Blanka's jumpins... sure they have to be done early to avoid a trade... but IMO... trading >>>> missing ur AA or getting out right beat by his jumpin like alot of the other cast do. I mean it is damn near impossible to DP his cross up safely. 4. Since Blanka is a fatass.... Eagle can cross him up. 5. Eagle has a cross up dash during wakeups... so you can fuckup his charge for wakeup supers. 6. Eagle has good air to air and air to ground priority... though I don't know if Eagle can beat Blanka's jumping Jesus fist. 7. Eagle can turtle vs Blanka if he has a lead. I don't know about rushdown... but I do know for that a turtling Eagle can piss off Blanka players. 8. Eagle can stuff alot of Blanka's AAs.... so that is definitely a plus. I don't know if I have told you some thing you don't already know... but personally... I find Eagle to be pretty good versus Blanka. I mean in all honesty... you have three choices vs Blanka... pick Sagat or Vega... to have good shot at beating him. Pick some char that is decent vs him, and work hard to try and beat him. Or pick like the remaining 70% of the cast... and just get owned. Blanka is shitty like that, so your options are limited. I think Eagle fits into the second group. Oh well... if you want, just post this topic on Shinakuma... Apoc can prolly give you an novel to read on the matchup... of course... making a thread in Shinakuma means... within 5 posts... the thread just detiorates to shit talk. Posted by GeekBoy on 03:05:2002 02:53 PM: I think Eagle can compete with Blanka, but Blanka has a higher favor in the match. A lot of Eagle's moves can punish Blanka Ball, like walk forward s.Fierce or Forward stick rush. Because Blanka can turtle more easily and control space at a better rate, Eagle has to move in more carefully. If you back Blanka into the corner, you can start to control the match, since Eagle's c.Fierce has INSANE range, Blanka is pretty much locked in. Eagle can now start with footsies. If Blanka tries to ball him, he can be nailed with the stick rush or be CCed. The only way Eagle can win in this match if he can be really aggressive, if Blanka continues to control the match, Eagle will never be able to get hits in. Posted by Apoc on 03:05:2002 09:09 PM: Not much needs to be said here I think. It's as simple as Eagle being able to pressure almost at will while Blanka can never pressure. Basically, if Blanka is behind on damage, he's screwed unless he's decent at parrying and in P groove. Otherwise, it's totally hopeless. If Eagle is behind, he can apply pressure and control the pace with or without a super and set up mindgames and cross-up attempts(you can even cross-up a ball attack and use the RH to "leap frog" over his punch super when it looks like it should hit you. One of those sprite things). Even a supreme turtle blanka can be guardcrushed or tossed to death since the momentum is in complete favor of the aggressor. It really comes down to simple things. Eagle can attack blanka with or without a super. Blanka can't really do shit without having a level 2 or higher which, unless you're in C groove, you won't have that kind of level too often because, once K or N are powered up, how can blanka attack Eagle and open him up? Eagle's defense is just too good. You have to be picky and take your time or you'll run into everything so...timer supers don't do sh*t for blanka imo since he can't attack Eagle when Eagle's on the defensive. All of blanka's distancing moves are unsafe against Eagle with St.Strong being the safest but it gets totally outranged so most find low fiercemore useful. That's not to hard to roll through or super on reaction, lol. While Eagle gets to use all of his pokes pretty freely against Blanka, even when he has a level 3. Eagle has a great roll, Blanka's is a roll. On top of all of this obvious crap, Eagle's most damaging combos and cross-up combos all land on Blanka. One cross-up on Blanka trying to ball getting up can mean 65-70% against a same ratio blanka. Not to mention that Eagle does huge dizzy with his level 2 cancel so one cross-up can be the game often. Outside of unbalanced ratios, I'm at a loss to see how blanka wins more than 3 out of 10 times. The match seems a tad lopsided to me. I'd like to hear how Blanka beats Eagle. It just doesn't happen now. Apoc. Posted by Orochi Pickle on 03:06:2002 12:15 AM: I would still have to go with blanka. I mean i guess eagle is cool and all i don't playwith him so i know nothing on him but i member playing an eagle player and he was killing me. Not terribly i would gt him to his last charater and we would get pretty close but i never really played blanka as competively i think i used him a total of 7 times and that was because i was getting bored. But i picked him and played his eagle and he really didn't do anything that i couldn't stop with blanka maybe he was a bad eagle player or i was playing well i still think blanka has the advantage. Jesus Cristo se amo todo con un amor perfecto. That was my broken spanish. boy four years of spanish and i still stunk at it. oh well. -Pickledude- Posted by Shadow Blanka on 03:06:2002 02:31 AM: I think the match is pretty even. it all depends on how the match progresses. if the eagle player lets Blanka rush down with small jump strong, it may be tough. Eagle can still use standing Fierce at a distance, Cr roundhouse, and Cr Fierce as anti-air. if you are just patient with Eagle you can make it very difficult for the Blanka player. Posted by Kechu on 03:06:2002 12:46 PM: I say it depends on groove too. Eagle has problems with Blanka's low jump pressure game. IMO Eagle vs ... C-Blanka 6/4 A-Blanka 7/3....maybe 8/2 P-Blanka 6/4 S-Blanka 5/5 N-Blanka 4/6....maybe 3/7 K-Blanka 4/6 C and A Blanka aren't that useful cos no low jump. d.HP will take care of him. If you don't know a N-groove Blanka has plently of time to attack Eagle after a blocked s.HP. 1 - do a super straight after the block. 2 - counter roll and do whatever. that's my say Posted by 26 on 03:06:2002 01:40 PM: Kechu, i think u should mention which groove u play Eagle in as well ^^ as much as i love Eagle, Blanka wins. i've attributed all wins vs Blanka to weak competition =) Posted by Spartanic on 03:06:2002 03:24 PM: i didnt decide to post till i experimented a lil and i see that eagle will own blanka some say ofcourse eagle sux but then again have u seen eagle at work... that jap site wit the vids has a few eagle ones... crazy well anyway u could poke the hell outta blanka and when your out of distance after u finish poking wit a standing fp u can def mix up ur play wit over head or med counters expecting blanks huge fist cmon at u and bam counter he jumps d.fp or high counter rush in and poke again... if he rolls c.mk into super or throw em... blanka balls? get outta here poke or med counter that shit a groove eagle... crazzzy Posted by Apoc on 03:06:2002 04:31 PM: I'm interested in hearing any anit-Eagle strats with blanka. Does anyone know how to fight Eagle with Blanka or is this all a lot of guessing in this thread. If you're going to say Blanka wins, I'd like to know how from more of you. As I've said, with super meter in some grooves Blanka has a few options but that is only as long as you have meter and outside of C or P...you don't ever have a level 2 or higher that you can keep which=dead blanka. A-groove Blanka can actually be a decent match. Outside of P(which can offset normal defenses), I don't see how Blanka stays in the game for too long. Apoc. Posted by Enk!ndu on 03:06:2002 05:14 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc I'm interested in hearing any anit-Eagle strats with blanka. Does anyone know how to fight Eagle with Blanka or is this all a lot of guessing in this thread. If you're going to say Blanka wins, I'd like to know how from more of you. As I've said, with super meter in some grooves Blanka has a few options but that is only as long as you have meter and outside of C or P...you don't ever have a level 2 or higher that you can keep which=dead blanka. A-groove Blanka can actually be a decent match. Outside of P(which can offset normal defenses), I don't see how Blanka stays in the game for too long. Apoc. Hi Apoc, Blanka is quick and powerful, that's pretty much the reason he owns. He can attack and take off maximum damage in just a short ammount of attacks. His growling leaps are also good for weakening poking characters. By keeping Blanka away it keeps pokers moving forward so they can get back into poke range. By the time they get back into that range for a poke or a crossup, Blanka already has a ton of moves at his disposal that can be executed within a spilt second. Crouching MK 2 in 1 to growling leap tick into Bite throw, Mp Ball, electricity owns Eagle everytime, as Eagle lacks a good wakeup but I don't like using that all that much as it's cheap. I do however wait for a poke and attempt a short hop crossover combo, or a counter crouching MK or FP into Ball or ball super, or growling leap-tick throw because Eagle's slow like that and lacks great anti-air like Sagats. You can have Blanka jump at the same time Sagat does Crouching FP, then have Sagat tiger uppercut right after and it will hit Blanka before he lands or hits Sagat every time. Even if you're going for a crossover Sagat switches sides! Blanka will beat Eagle Every single time. I hate Sagat like that. Chun Li owns Sagat. -Enk Here's a link to my Blanka play in a tournament. Hopefuly this helps. http://www.worldwarriornetwork.com/...evsAlexCvS2.asf Posted by Rolling Start on 03:06:2002 06:08 PM: THEORY FIGHTER! THEORY FIGHTER! LOL. Well, I used to try this matchup as well, and even though my eagle does better against him than, say, my weak Yamazaki, i still do better against him on the whole with Zangief and Todo (two of my main characters). Thing is, while fighting blanka, it's easy to think "Oh, well, that *any move*, look at the lag/startup/hitbox! Very easy to counter!" Thing is, people don't usually throw these things out at random. For instance, Eagle's low roundhouse. Very good sweep, but if it's blocked, PAM lv3 Lightning Ball. His qcf+p, good for countering blanka ball, but again if you rely on it PAM super. Eagle's just...i don't know, it might be my weak eagle skills, but if i stop attacking for one second it's all over against blanka. Eh. Posted by Apoc on 03:06:2002 06:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by Enk!ndu Hi Apoc, Blanka is quick and powerful, that's pretty much the reason he owns. He can attack and take off maximum damage in just a short ammount of attacks. His growling leaps are also good for weakening poking characters. By keeping Blanka away it keeps pokers moving forward so they can get back into poke range. By the time they get back into that range for a poke or a crossup, Blanka already has a ton of moves at his disposal that can be executed within a spilt second. Crouching MK 2 in 1 to growling leap tick into Bite throw, Mp Ball, electricity owns Eagle everytime, as Eagle lacks a good wakeup but I don't like using that all that much as it's cheap. I do however wait for a poke and attempt a short hop crossover combo, or a counter crouching MK or FP into Ball or ball super, or growling leap-tick throw because Eagle's slow like that and lacks great anti-air like Sagats. You can have Blanka jump at the same time Sagat does Crouching FP, then have Sagat tiger uppercut right after and it will hit Blanka before he lands or hits Sagat every time. Even if you're going for a crossover Sagat switches sides! Blanka will beat Eagle Every single time. I hate Sagat like that. Chun Li owns Sagat. -Enk Here's a link to my Blanka play in a tournament. Hopefuly this helps. http://www.worldwarriornetwork.com/...evsAlexCvS2.asf Thanx for the response However, you're not giving me solid strats. These are simple tricks that Eagle can break on reaction... " By keeping Blanka away it keeps pokers moving forward so they can get back into poke range. By the time they get back into that range for a poke or a crossup, Blanka already has a ton of moves at his disposal that can be executed within a spilt second." He may have a ton of moves to do but none aside from a super that's gonna do much against Eagle jumping all over him. Amount of moves don't mean jack. It's the quality and their uses in the match-up.... Also, moving forward leaves blanka less options. "Crouching MK 2 in 1 to growling leap tick into Bite throw, Mp Ball, electricity owns Eagle everytime, as Eagle lacks a good wakeup but I don't like using that all that much as it's cheap." So how does blanka get in close enough to use even ONE cr. forward? Also, you can use the jab spin on any leap attack that lands close enough to grab. Done on reaction, Blanka gets hit before he can attempt a grab. Not to mention he is thrown clear off of Eagle again. Either way, there is no safe time for Blanka to do the kk hop outside of a 2in1. You can bank on trying to hop through every long poke but you get hurt worse everytime you guess wrong. He risks big damage everytime unless he lands nowhere near Eagle. It's a nice trick that can work occassionally(if you get in...again, how does Blanka get close to Eagle?) but it's just a trick. A tactic. It's far from solid strategy and will usually get you killed. If you play someone who doesn't know how to play Eagle, sure. Otherwise, you're banking on luck the whole time. And again, Blanka has a bitch of a time just getting in to take a risk? Pretty much all you're saying is that "Blanka can get lucky with this." Those are tactics best left for when your solid strats aren't working. "I do however wait for a poke and attempt a short hop crossover combo, or a counter crouching MK or FP into Ball or ball super, or growling leap-tick throw because Eagle's slow like that and lacks great anti-air like Sagats." There's some strategy there. Still, you're banking on Eagle hitting a low RH,cr/st.fierce or a low strong. If he uses jab, cr/st forward, low forward, blanka gets nailed. This is much better odds here but again, as I said, you rely on Eagle to attack. Blanka has no real air defense other than a super against Eagle's jumps so Eagle doesn't have to poke on the ground. And really, what can Blanka do if Eagle sits there? What are you gonna counter with the low forward? And from max range you can't combo the fierce into a ball super without a level 2 or higher. Also, Eagle has some of the best air defense in the game. Level 1 spin trades at worst on the ground(aside from high level supers and perfect DPs like Sagat's)as well and you can combo with the trade which makes it more deadly at level1. He lacks a perfect reversal outside of a super though. But he doesn't need one against Blanka so that's moot. Even the best Blankas will have their work cut out for them against Eagle. I honestly think most have only seen blanka in action. Cuz to me, this match is pretty funny. Eagle is more than a match for Blanka. I love that match. Eagle rocks Blanka. The only time I see Blanka winning is if Blanka comes in full with a low damage Eagle and Blanka has a level 3 STORED. Basically, for blanka to win, the scales must already be tipped heavily in his direction allowing for him to turtle with the super. Otherwise, Eagle wins outright. Put Blanka vs. Eagle on single match mode where you both start with no super. Eagle wins. It's the 3 man team set up that even gives Blanka a chance. Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 03:06:2002 06:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by Rolling Start THEORY FIGHTER! THEORY FIGHTER! LOL. Well, I used to try this matchup as well, and even though my eagle does better against him than, say, my weak Yamazaki, i still do better against him on the whole with Zangief and Todo (two of my main characters). Thing is, while fighting blanka, it's easy to think "Oh, well, that *any move*, look at the lag/startup/hitbox! Very easy to counter!" Thing is, people don't usually throw these things out at random. For instance, Eagle's low roundhouse. Very good sweep, but if it's blocked, PAM lv3 Lightning Ball. His qcf+p, good for countering blanka ball, but again if you rely on it PAM super. Eagle's just...i don't know, it might be my weak eagle skills, but if i stop attacking for one second it's all over against blanka. Eh. There's the problem. You defeat blanka solely on your normals. Eagle has too many air defenses and his jump attacks outprioritze all of Blanka's air defense outside of supers and even level1 gets owned. That adds up to Eagle being able to jump like a madman on Blanka and blanka just trying to get away since he can't punish Eagle. On the ground st.forward,low strong, low short, low forward and st. fierce at max range(unless he has a level 3 in which case you should just use it to counter the slide after it's blocked) and the occassional st.strong. Blanka gets to sit there trying to use his slow lagging long moves while having to worry about jump-ins. Eagle's like a giant box that Blanka can't get into or stay away from. Blanka's only saving grace in this match is his supers which, as I said earlier, he only has with P, C, and A. The others can easily be out turtled since blanka must charge while attacking before the timer runs out and Eagle's defense is just too good. K's ability to JD can help him some but only an Eagle that abuses st. fierce will eat any counters after a JD. You can even jump on K blanka still without fear of much aside from them charging up for a sec. I look forward to all the Blanka's at B6. I consider them easy pickings. Hope they have a Sagat back-up:P Apoc. Posted by face on 03:06:2002 07:43 PM: lol, no one here has seen a good eagle. i know enk has'nt cause i play him all the time, but i dont use eagle. only one person around here uses eagle and he knows hes a scrub. i dont see blanka beating a good eagle any day. sagat on the other hand......... Posted by Enk!ndu on 03:06:2002 08:34 PM: I'll have to get back to you on those Apoc, sounds like you've done your homework though. I must share with you Duc Do's Blanka if you haven't played against it, his Blanka does get lucky alot, but that doesn't mean it isn't good, or an easy target. -Enk Posted by Viscant on 03:06:2002 10:11 PM: I disagree with most everything being posted so far, especially with regards to the jumping game. As I see it, Blanka has massive edge in jump game and anti-air game simply because his short jump is so good. Every common Blanka groove but C vs. every common Eagle groove but A, Blanka has major edge in jumping because he can short jump and not be afraid of retaliation. Since the best Eagle can hope for is the occasional clean win and the often trade, Blanka will have the edge. The ONLY way Eagle can get a clean win v. Blanka early jump rh is to hit the button right as Blanka leaves the ground or maybe even a little before. Blanka also has options that allow him to early short jump (back hop, electricity) that no other character really has. This puts a huge strain on normal driven anti-air characters. Eagle falling in this category (because his supers are not designed for anti-air, and his air counter Does Not Work). Eagle doesn't really have these options against Blanka. Blanka uses air hop fierce as his primary anti-air, which deals equally against hops or normal jumps or super jumps. While I realize that Eagle can use hop as air defense too, it's nowhere near as effective, plus you have to judge time depending on which jump Blanka did, etc. It's just not as feasible as Blanka who does the same thing every time. Eagle's jumpins are not as good vs. the slap and he also has to be in far far closer than Blanka does due to the angle of jumpins. And that's hard to establish. Blanka short jumps are more like a ground poke. He can add them to low fierce, low rh ground game making him a threat in all 3 major areas, neutralizing Eagle's counter game and making him poke blindly should he want to try and get started. And that's a REALLY bad idea because of Blanka's hop. Think about it. When Eagle thinks something's coming, he can try to roll through it. There's risk/reward there. When Blanka thinks something's coming, he backhops. You get all the rewards Eagle gets and more and none of the risk. Adding this to Blanka poke game just gives him an easy free super without thinking. Like a pattern I ripped from one of the JPN videos we got awhile back. Low jump rh, stand strong, low forward, hop back. If they move, they get blasted, plus you'll probably almost have a full guard crush as they're getting up. And it's all low risk too. Eagle has to put himself at risk when he wants to guess or "react" to a low fierce that has 3 separate (low rh, low strong, low jab) similar triggers. Blanka can just think to himself "if it moves, I'll do this and then I get super + counter hit bonus". Too good. Hop also works if you bait slide counter. Eagle (and any other non 0-2 framer) can't punish Blanka after max range slide. So Blanka can bait out s.fierce and blast it. Just too many options. As I see it, Eagle has to hope for Blanka to make mistakes working too hard to get in on him. Blanka wins this match the same way he fights Vega. Go station to station, punish his jumps, make him desperate, since you're only gaining ground and never losing it, random backhops won't hurt you and could make life easier and the short jump will win it, because Blanka can use it and Eagle can't. The ONLY time I see this match being in clear favor of Eagle is A Eagle v. C Blanka, or a good form of the Eagle on an immobile Blanka and even then I'd be as generous to Eagle as possible and say he wins it. If Blanka isn't in C or A, he should win this without really trying. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Apoc on 03:07:2002 01:13 AM: Short jump gets hit by st. strong on the way up and that strong also counters st/cr fierce. Also, at any range that Blanka could use the short jump, you can utilize your counter without fear. Without a level 3 the counter will hit both supers and any low poke and he's fine if he blocks it then too. Simply wait out the N timer and the K timer. Blanka can't get in on Eagle too easily. Eagle can turtle that match pretty easily. Simple as that. Short jump does little and to get in a range where you're close enough to use it? That's a trick. The slide is also useless in this match because of Eagle's walking speed. Try to range it perfectly against Eagle. 9 out of 10 times you'll get hit by a counter fierce at it's farthest reach. I hope you have a stock broken and a spare or, are raged in K because Eagle can block the counter super. You have to get within low strong range to do that slide to bait a clean counter and then Eagle can just super if he has it(level 1 will hit). Good luck getting that close to a stationary Eagle. Also, the back hop is useful, however, that gives Eagle time to close in. As I said, it's never safe for blanka to hop without a 2in1 so good luck using those hops once in the corner. There are plenty of jump-ins that Eagle can do to keep Blanka from getting up to hit fierce and of course, without a super, blanka has no other solid anti-air that won't get combo'd that I've seen. I don't see how Eagle is ever desperate in this match when he has several avenues of attack whereas blanka must resort to using pokes which are just as dangerous to him as Eagle's rolling in anticipation is for him. The difference is that Eagle doesn't have to roll but blanka does need that fierce. In order to win Blanka has to make bigger risks imo. I look forward to playing this match at shgl soon. We're still waiting for nice sticks here. But this is a matter of solid strategy. Sure, Blanka can pull tricks to win. Solidly played though, Eagle has more ability to dictate the match. Blanka isn't doing shit if Eagle comes up with a full bar and he has 50% life. If he "wins" the match then he should have the ability to come back from deficits. Fact is, blanka is forced turtle and counter to win. He's not getting anywhere trying to rush Eagle down. Eagle can win either way. That's how I'm seeing the match so far. Eagle can turtle; Blanka can't, as well. Eagle can attack; Blanka can't, as well. This is one of those clear cut matches for me. Blanka is everywhere. I have to assume no one understands this match down there or I'm missing something that's completely obvious. With so many Blanka's out there I have to doubt that the latter is the case. I'll have to pay close attention to this match next time I go down there. Apoc. Posted by Spartanic on 03:07:2002 03:59 AM: whooops i shouldnt have posted... i didnt really read the posts in this thread... hehe apoc posted...so he should def know the matchup.. a nice thread on eagle goood stuff on shinakuma apoc Posted by BrazilionBH on 03:07:2002 04:11 AM: Jump back feirce with eagle is all you need. Posted by Apoc on 03:07:2002 02:00 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spartanic whooops i shouldnt have posted... i didnt really read the posts in this thread... hehe apoc posted...so he should def know the matchup.. a nice thread on eagle goood stuff on shinakuma apoc Thanks Spartanik I feel that I do know the match-up pretty solidly but the game is still new in the tourney sense. It's possible that we all have a different insight into the match that others have not been exposed to. So, although strats and tactics may differ, it's always fun to see a perspective from elsewhere Thanx again Apoc. Posted by Spartanic on 03:07:2002 05:58 PM: yeah no prob Posted by Viscant on 03:08:2002 02:03 AM: Very interesting discussion so far. A few things I wanted to touch on right there, so if I start rambling OT, just skip ahead. --On frequency of Blanka. I don't think that what Apoc said is really true. I don't think there really ARE a glut of Blankas running around especially among upper eschelon players who will play Blanka and make him really strong. Like, when I play at SHGL on tournament night, there are usually like 3 or 4 Blankas there max. Omni plays him sometimes. Duc plays him. SiN has a pretty good one. I have one, but I barely count mine as a half. I don't really play him that much and kind of back off on him when the chips are down a lot. So that's what, 3 Blankas in SoCal, with Duc the only one who gets top 3 at tournaments. At least in So Cal, good Blanka seems rare. I'm not going to speak for NorCal since I don't know the scene up there that well, but when I went scouting during the Viscant v. Tragic/Buktooth match, I looked at tournament results and aside from Graham, didn't see any Blankas in the top 10 (!) during those relevant result periods. My sub-par Blanka did pretty good on them just because I don't think they'd seen a lot of the stupid K-Blanka tricks. I know Choi said he was going to start playing him, but I don't know if he does or not. Cali doesn't seem to play him that much, even though we all agree he's probably #2 or #3 overall. Then again, we don't play Chun-Li in 3s either and Jin has never won a T4 tournament at SHGL. I don't think Cali likes top tier. That said, I think that there are a lot of subtle nuances with Blanka that make this match different from how you're describing. Just from how you're talking about anti-airing a short jump, I think you're looking at it wrong. Blanka short jumps are like KoF98 hop CDs or hop down-fierce with Kyo. If you plan on anti-airing with normals or counters, it's simply too much work and anticipation (guessing) to be relied upon. That's what Blanka short jump is. It's a ground poke, part of the ground game. Look at the range that the Blanka v. Eagle match is fought in. So favors Blanka. He has room to do everything he wants, from short jumps, to low fierce or low rh, some approach in s.strong (mostly after short jump to re-establish range), all the while building meter with P or N groove or setting you up for j.d. in K groove. I also disagree with Blanka not being able to land K groove supers. Blanka has one of the best "I will make you get hit within 8 seconds" supers around just because it's useful for so many things. Blanka guard breaks fast, and can string together the last third of the guard meter quickly off a jumpin and land the super after blankaball recoil. Even though Eagle's best groove is A (only Eagle groove with a real anti-short jump threat that I have to respect), experience has shown me that a K Blanka still has a chance on him just because he so rarely has enough meter to custom with, just because he keeps having to burn meter during the rage so as not to get fried for free. While I agree that in most cases the SNK boost periods to land a level 3 are too short for most characters (I can't remember the last time a K Iori has landed maiden masher during his rage, for example), it's definitely not too short for Blanka. If you want to argue that C groove Blanka loses to Eagle, while I won't necessarily agree wholeheartedly, I won't argue that too much just because I don't see how Blanka can maintain range in that fight. He'll fight that on Eagle's terms just because he can't move around well. Even though that's the most common Blanka groove, I don't think that's the best. C Blanka also seems to lose a lot to Vega which really shouldn't happen, just because he can't set up his crossup game and match experience shows me that he's fighting that match at Vega's arm's length. But OTHER groove Blankas (K,P,N) seem to do very well on Vega and very VERY well on Eagle for the same reasons that C groove Blanka loses those fights. Controls mobility, forces the other character to fight at Blanka's preferred range and makes Blanka's supers way more useful. EDIT: In Blanka count above, I completely forgot about Genghis. My bad. Considering as how I play him more than I play everyone else combined I shouldn't have forgot him. Oops. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by TrueNewbiePR on 03:08:2002 04:09 AM: omg diasgreeing and agreeeing look i have seen the best matches of cvs2 and man even the best blanka player will get owned by eagle cause eagle has too many priorities find that out yourself blanka sucks hes the "cable" of mvc2 so actually any blanka player whos a scrub will always win cause blanks is cheap period this shgl tourney tell me the results and i will tell u what the errors u have made note to all anti blanka players: u r going to be screwed now to this sghl tourney cause everyonw will be using blanka k groove or n groove heh wow!!!!! viscant: damn man i thought u knew better than that Posted by Viscant on 03:08:2002 05:26 AM: No, see, that's my whole point here. Blanka is NOT that low skill. If you'd like, since you brought up MvC2, Cable is a good similar. ANYONE can be dangerous with Cable. BUT. How many Cables are actually good? Ah, that's a different story, isn't it? Blanka's a lot like that. Take a few matches, watch a few good players play, follow the flowchart and yeah, you're dangerous. But what IMO makes Blanka still a dominating character is the extra stuff you can do outside of the flowchart. He gets so much benefit out of the little things in the SNK changes that the engine brings. I've talked at length about low jump forward, but low jump back is also scary. That's an in close overhead and you can hold onto your super while you do it. Lots of people can low fierce with Blanka, but not everyone can hop well and lots of people don't even know how/when to do it. The whole point of the last post I made was that there's more to Blanka than just sit on a level 3 super and low fierce and that by playing smart and by bending/breaking the CvS2 engine, he can beat everyone, especially and including Eagle and a lot of other characters who appear to beat him. Can't believe you missed it. If you don't want to think about it in Eagle terms, think about it in Vice terms. Vice killed killed KILLED Blanka in CvS1. And if you play C-Groove Blanka and play CvS1 strategies (like most Blankas do), Vice will still win. She got new pokes, got an A combo (should you want it), parries or just defends, or running or dodging. But if Blanka uses the CvS2 engine too, he'll beat her. That's the problem with most of the people who are looking at it this match in Eagle's favor. You're playing CvS2, but expecting me to play CvS1. Bottom line: Good, non C groove Blanka is very rare. Don't think of it as a common commodity. Experience in SoCal, some NorCal and some Pacific NW has shown me that it isn't, at least in this region. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Evil Rahsaan on 03:08:2002 06:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant No, see, that's my whole point here. Blanka is NOT that low skill. If you'd like, since you brought up MvC2, Cable is a good similar. ANYONE can be dangerous with Cable. BUT. How many Cables are actually good? Ah, that's a different story, isn't it? Blanka's a lot like that. Take a few matches, watch a few good players play, follow the flowchart and yeah, you're dangerous. But what IMO makes Blanka still a dominating character is the extra stuff you can do outside of the flowchart. He gets so much benefit out of the little things in the SNK changes that the engine brings. I've talked at length about low jump forward, but low jump back is also scary. That's an in close overhead and you can hold onto your super while you do it. Lots of people can low fierce with Blanka, but not everyone can hop well and lots of people don't even know how/when to do it. The whole point of the last post I made was that there's more to Blanka than just sit on a level 3 super and low fierce and that by playing smart and by bending/breaking the CvS2 engine, he can beat everyone, especially and including Eagle and a lot of other characters who appear to beat him. Can't believe you missed it. If you don't want to think about it in Eagle terms, think about it in Vice terms. Vice killed killed KILLED Blanka in CvS1. And if you play C-Groove Blanka and play CvS1 strategies (like most Blankas do), Vice will still win. She got new pokes, got an A combo (should you want it), parries or just defends, or running or dodging. But if Blanka uses the CvS2 engine too, he'll beat her. That's the problem with most of the people who are looking at it this match in Eagle's favor. You're playing CvS2, but expecting me to play CvS1. Bottom line: Good, non C groove Blanka is very rare. Don't think of it as a common commodity. Experience in SoCal, some NorCal and some Pacific NW has shown me that it isn't, at least in this region. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Jesus christ Viscant you are too opininated cant you just be wrong for once?? Or will hell freeze over 1st? Anyway, i cant wait to face your blanka vs my K sim i'll give you a run. Posted by TrueNewbiePR on 03:08:2002 02:04 PM: DAMN RIGHT!!!!! Posted by cheese_master on 03:08:2002 02:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant No, see, that's my whole point here. Blanka is NOT that low skill. If you'd like, since you brought up MvC2, Cable is a good similar. ANYONE can be dangerous with Cable. BUT. How many Cables are actually good? Ah, that's a different story, isn't it? Blanka's a lot like that. Take a few matches, watch a few good players play, follow the flowchart and yeah, you're dangerous. But what IMO makes Blanka still a dominating character is the extra stuff you can do outside of the flowchart. He gets so much benefit out of the little things in the SNK changes that the engine brings. I've talked at length about low jump forward, but low jump back is also scary. That's an in close overhead and you can hold onto your super while you do it. Lots of people can low fierce with Blanka, but not everyone can hop well and lots of people don't even know how/when to do it. The whole point of the last post I made was that there's more to Blanka than just sit on a level 3 super and low fierce and that by playing smart and by bending/breaking the CvS2 engine, he can beat everyone, especially and including Eagle and a lot of other characters who appear to beat him. Can't believe you missed it. If you don't want to think about it in Eagle terms, think about it in Vice terms. Vice killed killed KILLED Blanka in CvS1. And if you play C-Groove Blanka and play CvS1 strategies (like most Blankas do), Vice will still win. She got new pokes, got an A combo (should you want it), parries or just defends, or running or dodging. But if Blanka uses the CvS2 engine too, he'll beat her. That's the problem with most of the people who are looking at it this match in Eagle's favor. You're playing CvS2, but expecting me to play CvS1. Bottom line: Good, non C groove Blanka is very rare. Don't think of it as a common commodity. Experience in SoCal, some NorCal and some Pacific NW has shown me that it isn't, at least in this region. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Viscant, you make some very good points. But the way I see it, your question is more around the level of how does Eagle beat Ohnuki's (or that guy who got 3rd place, he seemed to have a better Blanka) Blanka. I don't think there are many people who even understand N or K Blanka well enough to play him to that level. I completely agree... once mastered... Blanka is probably to best in the game... but again... I don't think there are even 10 people in the world who can play him to that level yet. Take for example... Ohnuki's Ryu... I am sure there are 12314141 biters doing the same jab rushdown now (hey I'm one of them)... but how many of them actually understand how or where or when to do what. Similarly... there can be 341324312 N and K Blankas... but how many of them actually know when to use low jumps or where to pressure etc.? What I am trying to say is... you are arguing about how does Eagle beat Blanka? I don't think any character (maybe Cammy) does beat Blanka at that level, because Blanka has more character potential than any other character But if we are talking about the current Blankas (at least in the US)... I think Eagle beats most of them. A lot of this match up also has to do with people not knowing what Eagle brings to the table. But on paper... Blanka w/ low jumps beats Eagle... without them... he doesn't. Also... what makes you say A Eagle is the best Eagle? I personally think he is probably best off in N groove. I don't understand why he is supposed to be good in C groove? His lvl2 cancel aren't that good, and air blocked doesn't give him that big an edge... though losing his dash is minus. A groove... I just don't see his CC as being that big a deal... especially since he doesn't have the best AA CC. Those are my thoughts Apoc... You once told me that Eagle is good in C groove because of his massive combos? I am lost because I really don't see anything that good that can't be done in N groove (his lvl2 cancels don't do that much more than his lvl3). Also you speak of his ability to nearly dizzy someone with one combo... the best I got was 40 some dizzy points. And also... what is the point of his weird links? Then don't allow him to combo very well anyways. I was just wondering. Posted by Apoc on 03:08:2002 06:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by cheese_master Apoc... You once told me that Eagle is good in C groove because of his massive combos? I am lost because I really don't see anything that good that can't be done in N groove (his lvl2 cancels don't do that much more than his lvl3). Also you speak of his ability to nearly dizzy someone with one combo... the best I got was 40 some dizzy points. And also... what is the point of his weird links? Then don't allow him to combo very well anyways. I was just wondering. Eagle's level 2 cancel not only does more than a level 3 but it also lands for full damage from a farther distance than a level 3. For example, at the max distance a level 3 will hit, it won't fully combo. They are able to counter before the last hit because of the distance. If Eagle lands a level 3 on a charged character at his furthest range, not only does he not even land a full level 3(which you then start to see how damage is more greatly affected by these cancels), but he gets supered back for free, taking damage because he did the level 3 from too far. The level 2 cancel not only does more damage, it also has a "teleport" property to it. When you cancel a far landing level 2 into level 1 Eagle and the opponent get sucked together during the cancel. There are many times when you might think that Eagle is too far away for the cancel but if you do the cancel the opponent will magically appear closer getting hit by the full level 1 as well. So, not only is it more damage, it's landable from much farther than the level 3. This is also where you're dizzy ability and links help further since you can link and land a full super from much farther. For example: Jump in Rh, cr. jab x's 2, cr. fierce, level 2. This already does enough damage and corners them but tack on a forward rush afterward and they can't move afterward without running into a dizzying hit and you're only a couple of moves from doing the same damage combo again so if they don't turtle and you hit them or trade, they'll be dizzy most of the time. Then you combo into a link which gives you another level 2 and pushes them into the corner. This time, you let the super finish and tack on a cancelled golf swing or fierce counter. There is no way that N-Eagle can do that much damage and still have you threatened when you wake up. After a level 3, when they get up, the dizzy meter is reset. So basically, in C you can land more damage, from farther, causing more dizzy and you can land that "more damage" more often in one round and much more often in one match than Eagle in N-Groove can land level 3. It averages out to MUCH more damage. Especially if you understand how his landed rushes are set-ups(which is what you use to cancel at midscreen with). I'm not going into all the set ups a landed rush causes but everyone including Valle gets hit by it so, landing that level 2 cancel, set up properly, should lead to a dizzy which leads to another link combo-lvl2-cancel. It gets pretty sick. I'm not saying that C is clearly better, just answering your questions The links are their for damage and dizzy and set-ups. Roll, low forward,low jab, low strong, cancel, is a pretty dizzying normal combo without a jump in. Also you can do the same link and cancel a jab spin and that's a set up. It pushes you much farther than you'd think when blocked and the opponent realizes too late when he comes in to retaliate on the lag. You can bait many things with his links. Cancel into strong counter makes them want to attack with a super so you can use your cancels to draw and hit supers that aren't level 3 because of the priority of the counter when released. You have to release it immediately so it hits the super or forces them to block. These are just some examples of what to do with his links. Don't forget though, they do more damage, leave him safer, cancel(which has endless possibilities depending on situations), do more dizzy, do more guardcrush.... Without links, Eagle is cut in half. And Eagle being the best in A-Groove? He's good, as long as he has a meter. Imo, C and N are better than A overall. Though a custom does accent Eagle's ground game some, he has no airblock, no short jump, does less damage overall, has less options overall and loses his super meter easier. Against P or any rolling groove, a missed custom is death since they aren't forced to block all subsequent hits after the miss. Eagle in A might be better in some instances but, overall, he's less threatening although he is the easiest Eagle to use. S-groove Eagle may even be better than A-Eagle. But it will be the most common Eagle I'm sure. His ground CC is too easy and flashy. Ease+flash? Yup, that's the call to the masses, lol. But no way is A-Eagle the best Eagle. Even with meter. If I'm using A-Groove, I'll put him on my team because I can play Eagle. But if I'm there to play Eagle, A-groove? Imo, that's way off. Apoc. Posted by Viscant on 03:08:2002 10:48 PM: Maybe I shouldn't have said best Eagle overall, but in terms of the Blanka match, A-Eagle is definitely the strongest. It's not like P-groove theory fighter where "well, if I parry everything, then I win, right", A-Eagle alters Blanka's gameplan considerably and realistically. I lose early short jump, making delay short jump even less effective, which makes ground game more predictable, etc, etc ,etc. When Eagle gets a full A meter, stuff starts domino effect. No other Eagle groove even makes me pause for thought on short jumps but A and sometimes S, and A is clearly better than S simply because it's dangerous far more often. Bottom line, C Groove Eagle WILL do more damage, but A groove Eagle WILL use his meter more often with far greater success and will make me play way different. As I see it, A gives the best chance to win especially since A does so good against the SNK grooves in general which give Eagle the most trouble (short jumps, running, etc). That's a double matchup bonus right there. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Apoc on 03:08:2002 11:23 PM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant Maybe I shouldn't have said best Eagle overall, but in terms of the Blanka match, A-Eagle is definitely the strongest. It's not like P-groove theory fighter where "well, if I parry everything, then I win, right", A-Eagle alters Blanka's gameplan considerably and realistically. I lose early short jump, making delay short jump even less effective, which makes ground game more predictable, etc, etc ,etc. When Eagle gets a full A meter, stuff starts domino effect. No other Eagle groove even makes me pause for thought on short jumps but A and sometimes S, and A is clearly better than S simply because it's dangerous far more often. Bottom line, C Groove Eagle WILL do more damage, but A groove Eagle WILL use his meter more often with far greater success and will make me play way different. As I see it, A gives the best chance to win especially since A does so good against the SNK grooves in general which give Eagle the most trouble (short jumps, running, etc). That's a double matchup bonus right there. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com A eagle or C eagle can handle any blanka I think. I wouldn't think A is better since I think you'll be landing many more supers than you will a custom because of the charge up on C. Rolling through a move into a jab isn't much harder than CCing through a move and you can do it more often and for more damage because of how much the special charges on a level 2 cancel(or you can finish it and then cancel for huge damage while still having level 1) and the dizzy points done by level 2 cancels and finishers that set up. If you mentally damage your opponent with a custom, they might still play fine once you lose it. If you bust them off with a lvl2 cancel and then dizzy them, THEN jump in with more links to charge into another super....well, that's scary anytime Eagle has level 2, which is just about always if he sticks to using level 2s with cancels. The fear factor of that is always there whereas the custom only changes the match while you have it. Not to mention the battery effect for later rounds as the opponent has to play safer the whole time because you always have that threat. Dealing with short jumps and running are nothing against Eagle. His counters are high priority. Timed well, running is gonna get you smacked and so will rolling while running. Either way, he can make you block it at max range and S forces you to stop running as well. There's no benefit to attacking when you can come out of dodge blocking and even go into another dodge if blanka sticks out something far afterward. Honestly, no one knows how to properly implement counters with Eagle. The counter, mixed in with pokes(and if Eagle is in N or K; good luck running against Eagle with short jump. Running hands Eagle the momentum here). Running gets slowed down really fast against the timing of the counter. The problem here is the margin of error against characters whose runspeed you're unfamiliar with. In this case you may use your counters more sparingly because you have to make sure they will block or try to hit the release. Otherwise, Eagle is dust. But the thing about the counter that is so great is that once your start it up to where they are forced to block it or get hit(when they hit a move or the block delay on a stop etc), they like to roll or parry. Eagle gets to hold it long enough to see a roll or let it go before he can hop back and a parry is unlikely. Goodluck just defending in K since K has to run cancel into JD. The same goes for short jumps. When blanka gets close, he's not charged for a sec. The start up always comes off of a standing position. So Eagle can't be faked into busting out a counter and eating a slide or a roundhouse. If short jumps were faster it would be different. But you can roll, midcounter(blanka gets hit even if he sticks nothing out), jump back, standing strong, dash back and alpha counter any short jump at anytime. And if Eagle blocks it, blanka is right next to Eagle...come to think of it. My comfort range is a lot closer than most Eagles. But I want blanka in short jump range so I can poke at him and roll when I can react to a fierce. Busting out the counter is faster then people think and it pauses you because you have to make sure to not be countered. So added up, it's fast move that only looks slow. It's underrated. I also feel that Eagle handles run and low jump just fine in any groove. As I've said before, Eagle's defense is second to none. Apoc. Posted by Viscant on 03:08:2002 11:57 PM: You're looking at this wrong again. Countering Blanka short jump is like countering normal moves. While good occasionally, you can't plan your whole game around it. That's why A groove is good. This is like 80-90% foolproof. In short jump range, Blanka short jumps and his sprite starts changing, hit 2 buttons and low forward. Too good and too easy and no other groove can compare. I'm not a huge fan of A groove, but I give the devil it's due. So then if you want to jump again, you have to go for fakeouts, which (unfortunately for Blanka) detract from the general gameplan of making you come to me. If you try midcounter, you have to start it RIGHT when I leave the ground. This leads to like, old school SNK mixups circa 1996. If you rely on midcounters to stop short jumps, you will get baited by crouch, stand straight up. Or by crouch, jab, hop. etc. It's just a matter of playing off people's reflexes and 1st reaction. Once counter stops being a 1st reaction I can go back to delaying short jump or using it as a foil to setup SJ/normal jump forward for crossup. Standard 3 jump mindgame. On Blanka storing super, you're looking at it wrong. Once Blanka makes you block any ground normal, he CAN have a super. It's not like Blanka attacking makes things easier on you. Like I said, if you block one ground normal, then when you add in the hop back time, I can let it off right when I hit the ground. Or after normal jump/SJ, 0 ground normals + backhop is enough. Backhop makes super way easier to land and lets Blanka guess if he starts getting desperate. Eagle doesn't have this and when he starts getting desperate, it's roll time which is NEVER good. I'm not disputing anything about C groove Eagle. I know he's dangerous, he hurts, always has meter, etc. etc. He also has fewer chances to let it off. A groove has an extremely practical, extremely easy way to get damage in an area that was previously completely owned lock stock and barrel by Blanka. I can't see how accepting getting short jumped repeatedly, but still holding out for the big bomb is any better than taking a little less damage when you get your chance (which will come to you more often than you have to go looking for it), but making the SF part of the game way easier. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Apoc on 03:09:2002 01:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant You're looking at this wrong again. Countering Blanka short jump is like countering normal moves. While good occasionally, you can't plan your whole game around it. That's why A groove is good. This is like 80-90% foolproof. In short jump range, Blanka short jumps and his sprite starts changing, hit 2 buttons and low forward. Too good and too easy and no other groove can compare. I'm not a huge fan of A groove, but I give the devil it's due. So then if you want to jump again, you have to go for fakeouts, which (unfortunately for Blanka) detract from the general gameplan of making you come to me. If you try midcounter, you have to start it RIGHT when I leave the ground. This leads to like, old school SNK mixups circa 1996. If you rely on midcounters to stop short jumps, you will get baited by crouch, stand straight up. Or by crouch, jab, hop. etc. It's just a matter of playing off people's reflexes and 1st reaction. Once counter stops being a 1st reaction I can go back to delaying short jump or using it as a foil to setup SJ/normal jump forward for crossup. Standard 3 jump mindgame. On Blanka storing super, you're looking at it wrong. Once Blanka makes you block any ground normal, he CAN have a super. It's not like Blanka attacking makes things easier on you. Like I said, if you block one ground normal, then when you add in the hop back time, I can let it off right when I hit the ground. Or after normal jump/SJ, 0 ground normals + backhop is enough. Backhop makes super way easier to land and lets Blanka guess if he starts getting desperate. Eagle doesn't have this and when he starts getting desperate, it's roll time which is NEVER good. I'm not disputing anything about C groove Eagle. I know he's dangerous, he hurts, always has meter, etc. etc. He also has fewer chances to let it off. A groove has an extremely practical, extremely easy way to get damage in an area that was previously completely owned lock stock and barrel by Blanka. I can't see how accepting getting short jumped repeatedly, but still holding out for the big bomb is any better than taking a little less damage when you get your chance (which will come to you more often than you have to go looking for it), but making the SF part of the game way easier. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com I understand how short jump with Blanka is implemented. That is exactly why the counter is good. You're wrong in thinking that you have to bust the counter right when blanka leaves the ground. That's not true at all. You can bust the counter as late as Blanka coming down from the peak. At that point, blanka either attacks and gets countered, whiffs and gets hit, or hits nothing and gets hit. Up and down doesn't do much since st.strong hits the short jump on the way up and also counters both of blanka's pokes that blanka can touch him with at this range. If blanka is crouching then you never need to use strong or a counter. Also, at this range, any thing that Blanka can touch Eagle with is easily rolled through. So what's Blanka going to do? Whiff a bunch of normals or hop around? Ok. No pressure there. Since you can wait all day to counter(as I said earlier, it comes out much faster than it appears)on a short jump, you only need to use it when you were too slow to hit a standing strong. Either way, at the range where Blanka can be effective with the short jump, Eagle has clean counters. Occassionally, you can attempt to hit the move very early in the short jump and hope the Eagle can't get a strong out in time and hit Eagle on the way up...you can also, occassionally, eat a free super for doing so,heheh. Otherwise short jumping gets Blanka hit anyway. You don't need A-groove meter to make the opponent fear short jumping. It's as easy as countering it or blocking it when Blanka is too far to do anything anyway. So, there is no old school mix-up. It's either strong on the way up or mid-counter and watch to release. The consistency is much higher for eagle to get the counter(in either form) then it is for Blanka to get a hit. Do the scenario 10 x's at random and you'll see Eagle with a large lead and supers. I don't see how I'm looking at storing blanka's super wrong. I really don't care if you run up and make me block a forward or dash back or just use the hop. Either way, you're holding back. So Eagle doesn't have to do anything. I don't see how this is threatening. First Blanka has to land a normal and charge, then I still have to flinch or do something stupid when he's charging? He can't do anything while he's charging. Go ahead and poke. It's not like you can just rush in on Eagle and make him block. So you have to be patient so that you don't run into everything coming in. Heh, you can't really run, and if you do, there's little threat of super outside of a landed short link from close. So you run and finally get a blocked normal in. Now what? In no way is Eagle desperate here and it's more likely that the meter will encourage misuse of the super as it runs out. Also, roll isn't necessary in this match. It's just a nice tool to be utilized sparingly. There's only one player here that rolls when desperate. I don't think we're as roll happy. Sufficed to say, you can't assume a good Eagle player is ever going to play desperately. Who plays Dhally desperately? It's a similar scenario. Eagle has to many ways to attack Blanka to where roll is an unecessary risk unless you can guarantee it. So why roll if you're desperate? Attack in 15 other safer ways. I think you have to be a pretty world class blanka to handle a very good Eagle. I'm not saying Blanka doesn't win, but I believe that the majority of Eagle vs. Blanka matches in a tournament will end up with Eagle as the victor. Apoc. www.shinakuma.com Posted by Evil Rahsaan on 03:09:2002 01:40 AM: OMG Apoc you are a walking CVS2 strategy guide you have to teach me some stuff man. Go on IRC i need to ask you about something about my characters. Posted by TrueNewbiePR on 03:09:2002 02:45 AM: oh brother wow apoc Posted by Viscant on 03:09:2002 08:28 PM: You have to counter immediately when Blanka leaves the ground because I'm going to hit the button almost as soon as I leave the ground. That's the benefit of having electricity, s.strong or hop to mix up with when I land. If you're going to counter that on reaction, you're fooling yourself. Eagle counter is not as fast as Geese counter (which is a reversal), and if you start guessing I can normal jump/SJ over for a crossup combo while you're stuck spinning your stick. This is why 3 jump mixup is easier on Blanka than Eagle. Blanka's answer to any of the 3 jumps, jump straight up. Eagle's answer to each of the 3 jumps. Translation, Blanka can defend the air against Eagle in real gameplay, Eagle does OK in RPG SF, but in the real game, he starts losing control real fast. You NEED A combo to make me stop short jumping because it's a PRACTICAL counter than can be done in a real match. It also hurts. You guess right and meet me air to air when I go for crossup, OK I lose a little, but I get to try again. You s.strong me when I'm going for short jump, that didn't hurt too much and I get another chance. You A combo me, that hurt a lot, my power meter might be on the decline (and while I don't think you can consistently avoid 8 seconds of K/N/S meter, avoiding 3-5 seconds is quite realistic) and you can simply walk backwards to safety, since that's one of the rare times Eagle will move Blanka forward enough to matter. Also it makes your air defense game way better since you can do all air defense from a crouch. On 3 jump mixup, low fierce for normal jump, duck into s.fierce or low fierce for SJ (whichever is more relevant to the jumpin Blanka does), duck into A combo activation for short jump. This is easy and practical. Countering right when I leave the ground before you know what jump I'm going to do, doing psychic s.strong for low damage and only semi reliability, or jumping wildly trying to predict a SJ are collectively NOT as strong an option and not to be relied upon. This is KoF gameplay...one of the rare times it's really implemented in this game. Hard to explain but I'll try. Aggressor holds all the cards since to counter short jump you have to react fast. Either you have reflexes in previously unseen qualities (you don't even see Choi/Valle DPing Blanka short jump DEEP rh on reaction), or you guess, or you simply let the attacker go. Which is why you see Kyo/Chris/Yashiro repeatedly shortjumping even characters like Iori with strong DPs in 98. It's risk/reward. You have to defend the crossup off SJ which will really hurt so you allow the short jump to become second priority. Just like KoF. What makes this different from KoF is that Blanka supplements his very strong jumping game with long dominating pokes. Rolling through low fierce or midcountering low fierce is not nearly as easy as you're trying to make it out to be, especially because I'll put you on notice that I'm going to get jump happy. Many characters in KoF use air game to set up a minimal ground game. Blanka has an outstanding ground game with hops, strong pokes. And one of the best jump games. Short jump fitting into both of these categories. You say it takes a world class Blanka to beat a good Eagle? I don't think so. From how you're describing it, it takes a very lucky to psychic Eagle to beat a Blanka who's merely playing a normal gameplan. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and in time you'll guess wrong and get fried. I have damage edge since I'm pushing on you, my trades hurt more and I don't have to worry about you going for crossup or anything since you have to wander into my range to even begin to set me up. No A combo, no stopping Blanka with Eagle. On the super, random hops make me look stupid if you just stand there and block, but it's part of the setup game. If you start letting the hop rule you then I can start tacking on extra pokes. Those extra pokes start translating into guard crush really fast. While I'm holding a super and you're in flashing guard crush, that hop into super is almost good as gold. Why? You don't want to eat double low forward into ball. That'll take off that last quarter to third of the meter. You start moving around, the super opens up. It's guessing without the risk. Always a great add on in my book. Especially because whiffing with Eagle gets you killed fast, way easier to hop counter him than other characters like shotos or something who whiff and retract fast (comparatively). I think in tournament, most Blanka v. Eagle matches would end with Blanka winning just on scrub out factor. Eagle works harder to land big damage, Blanka can win with little effort and just doing one or two things over and over, which is the formula for tournament wins. In casual play I think Eagle has a way better chance since your willingness to take random risks with counters and guess on my jump game might work out more and Eagle might win a little more if you get hot with your guessing game. Casual, freewheeling play is Eagle's best shot to win, but I wouldn't risk it in a tournament. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Apoc on 03:14:2002 02:44 AM: Sorry it's been a bit. So, let me refresh. It's being said here that Blanka, with small jump, beats Eagle. Perhaps I've misunderstood. It seems strange that, if it is simply another poke, how can small jump make that much of a difference when added in? Realistically, without a level 3, Eagle can range Blanka pretty well. In order for Blanka to get in range to use a low jump(to where it will do anything)he has to pass st. fierce range. Blanka doesn't want to get slapped on the way up at random by a normal poke. Unless you want to guess(not too strategic). So Blanka can hop, jump, short jump from really far, and walk(roll if in N). All of these get pushed back or punished on reaction. No matter how good you may think the short jump is in this match, you're rarely in a position to use it where it can make contact as long as the Eagle player is competent. So I am completely floored by the thought that the short jump is going to do much to completely alter the course of the match overall. If he hits it on the way up it still has to be a counter or be able to touch Eagle. Which means that he doesn't even get to use it that often. Knowing that the short jump is only effective at certain ranges, any Eagle can be ready the moment Blanka enters that range, taking away the surprise of most short jumps. Summed up:I disagree that the short jump wins the match. If he doesn't clearly win without the short jump then I don't believe he wins with it. It's not like Vega. Eagle has a ton of counters to Blanka getting in AND he has plenty to counter the short jump. I don't see it dominating in any way. Now look at the short jump grooves. K,N,P. P-Blanka has parry so, that's always good as it kills general footsies and strat. But N and K!? Without the timer going Eagle can have his way with Blanka, imo. No lvl3? Yay! I get to jump all day=) Short jump may even up the poke game a "bit". That's about all I can give there. More often than not Blanka will jump into a poke or try rolling when he can't get in range to short jump. K can hope to JD the long pokes but then that's a matter of individual skill and not strategy more along the lines of parry. Apoc. Posted by tragic on 03:14:2002 11:15 AM: "I think you have to be a pretty world class blanka to handle a very good Eagle. I'm not saying Blanka doesn't win, but I believe that the majority of Eagle vs. Blanka matches in a tournament will end up with Eagle as the victor. " - Apoc SoCal CVS2 tournament. Tony "Ponder" Cannon, R1 Blanka Jason "Apoc" Gonzales, R2 Eagle Ponder eliminates Apoc. Ponder will be the first to tell you he doesn't have a "World Class Blanka". It's a relatively straightforward / effective style. Use the pokes that work, low jump when you want, hop back a few times, low fierce, maybe slide. Apoc is pretty sure Eagle wins vs Blanka basically uncontested, but Ponder's relatively average Blanka stomped him into the ground. The point is (which the example proves), is that it takes a really really good Eagle to beat an average Blanka.... not the other way around. Or maaaybe... at the highest level, Eagle beats Blanka (which hasn't been shown yet...). Either way, at the beginning to intermediate level, which is what every Eagle I've ever seen is at (up to this point in CVS2 strategy), Blanka wins. Especially low-jump Blanka. Have to keep an eye out for future results with Blanka vs Eagle fights. See how things turn out as the game progesses. As of now, still the same in NorCal... dunno about anywhere else. ben Posted by King Sky on 03:14:2002 12:44 PM: Blanka N mode vs Eagle C mode I read somewhere that eagle gets free jumpins on blanka, i found this to be false, an early s.RH from blanka will stuff any of eagles jump in moves. so basically if you see him move into the air, depending on range, bring him back down with s.RH and Blanka can now go back into the offensive. A good poke pattern coupled with good short jump MK/RK games and Blanka can regain balance. However, a good eagle with proper rush/counter tactics can overcome blanka in no time, and his priority over blanka also helps. Eagle has to keep on the offensive and still maintain safety because if Eagle gets knocked down, blanka has a chance to come back and when he does, it aint good. oi im so tired, possibly more tomorrow....... Posted by randomcelestial on 03:14:2002 08:09 PM: First of all, this is by far the most informative and interesting thread on the entire site. Nice work, people. Actually, I've played in two major midwest CvS2 tourneys (oxymoron) with relative success and have actually played the Blanka/Eagle matchup a LOT. First of all, C-Blanka vs. A-Eagle is a bad, bad fight. A-Eagles are the only Eagles I've seen, and the poke fight against counters was just insurmountable. I did okay when I had a battery for Blanka beat on Eagle, and THEN Blanka with level 3 super dropped in, but that's only because Blanka turtles on a level 3 super and 100% life so fucking well. N-groove Blanka vs. A-Eagle twice I did well. Just basically mixing up low-jumps, hops and sweeps (slide or ducking RH, mostly the first) kept Eagle at bay until he got super, and at that point I wanted to play conservatively so I went Canadian with back hops and "Blanka Ball past someone jumping at me" for the rest of the game. So while I haven't played against expert level Eagles, I have an above average blanka against above average eagles and do fine with low-jumps, badly without them if they're both first in line. Yeah, Viscant is stubborn, but he's dope too. He told me how to win at MvC2 at MWC and I was one of the best 16 there. Posted by Apoc on 03:14:2002 09:20 PM: quote: Originally posted by tragic "I think you have to be a pretty world class blanka to handle a very good Eagle. I'm not saying Blanka doesn't win, but I believe that the majority of Eagle vs. Blanka matches in a tournament will end up with Eagle as the victor. " - Apoc SoCal CVS2 tournament. Tony "Ponder" Cannon, R1 Blanka Jason "Apoc" Gonzales, R2 Eagle Ponder eliminates Apoc. Ponder will be the first to tell you he doesn't have a "World Class Blanka". It's a relatively straightforward / effective style. Use the pokes that work, low jump when you want, hop back a few times, low fierce, maybe slide. Apoc is pretty sure Eagle wins vs Blanka basically uncontested, but Ponder's relatively average Blanka stomped him into the ground. Let's try and be a little more accurate here. First off, as many know, Vegas sticks are looser than average. SHGL are stiffer than average. Danny and I couldn't even do what we normally do. I couldn't even land a standard link combo the whole weekend until late Sunday simply because the stiffness kept snapping the stick fully back anytime I'd ease up on the handle which led to a ton of whiffed standing moves that should've been crouched. Which means links into supers weren't working for me either. So, as a whole, that performance wasn't close to what Eagle really is or what you'd see in our arcades. But we're getting perfect 360's to ensure that we can do what we do everyday when we go to shgl. At that point, you only do what you know will come out. Now, Ponder also won with Sagat with zero energy cuz it jumped straight up instead of over him when the super activated. So...Blanka vs. Eagle wasn't even the match. And no one got stomped into the ground. I'm glad Ponder won but, take your best NoCa Blanka and pit him vs. my Eagle. The only matter here was sticks and all Vegas(4 peeps) had mad trouble on them because ours are that dramatically different. So half of what I do I was unable to do. No links(I do them in EVERY match, not one at SHGL), no combo'd supers...etc. This wasn't even a matter of Blanka vs. Eagle. I don't know why this is brought up considering that this was almost 2 months ago anyway. But since you brought it up. That was the only time I've lost to either Cannon on any game. As I recall, you lost to Tony only weeks before at SVGL on your own sticks. I suppose his characters just beat yours? Everyone has a good day. Imo, NoCa has little clue about Eagle. One dimensional mid-range sim play. There are counter match-ups that they will never have a shot at winning. Props to Tony on the match but...if that means that Eagle loses to Blanka then I suppose so does A-Groove Bison. You should know better than to judge from one match. Especially since I wasn't the only one with a machine preference. You don't have a machine preference if everyone feels solid about them all. I'm coming down to SVGL soon. I'd be more than happy for anyone to set me up with the best Blanka there in the first round. Then you can throw Tony in there too, then I'll come in here and rant about how Eagle ownz shitty NoCa Blankas? lol Seriously, go ahead and set it up. Basically, you might want more, and more reliable criteria to judge by. But I don't see you using Eagle or Blanka so...and you just lost to Tony weeks before(according to Nelson you were pretty pissed off). Tony's had some good matches and I gave him his props. I'd still put a bill down saying that Eagle will beat blanka. Just put down the money cuz, we all know, lightning doesn't strike twice. Apoc. Posted by Vega on 03:14:2002 10:16 PM: Sorry to butt in and not post any strategies or theories, but I thought since Viscant started the thread by talking about team ManLove, he would have an appreciation for my avatar. I've had it for awhile now. It's a joke towards my local buddies because they always make fun of these characters. I've got an even better one coming soon. Posted by Rairu on 03:14:2002 10:18 PM: Nice thread. I feel inspired. Perhaps CvS2 is more than 'a steaming pile of really bad game.' YAY Posted by Ponder on 03:14:2002 11:29 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc Now, Ponder also won with Sagat with zero energy cuz it jumped straight up instead of over him when the super activated. So...Blanka vs. Eagle wasn't even the match. And no one got stomped into the ground. My order was N-Groove Blanka, Chun, Sagat(2) both matches. I seem to remember the first match having your Ratio 2 Eagle 1st... The 2nd match, you moved Eagle to 3rd and Sagat won in the way you describe. I honestly don't remember the match that well. Just trying to clarify. Posted by tragic on 03:14:2002 11:37 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc I'm glad Ponder won but, take your best NoCa Blanka and pit him vs. my Eagle. The only matter here was sticks and all Vegas(4 peeps) had mad trouble on them because ours are that dramatically different. So half of what I do I was unable to do. No links(I do them in EVERY match, not one at SHGL), no combo'd supers...etc. This wasn't even a matter of Blanka vs. Eagle. I don't know why this is brought up considering that this was almost 2 months ago anyway. The reason I brought it up is because even back then, you were saying that Eagle beats Blanka with ease. It simply isn't the case. It has yet to be proven come tournament time, then, or now. There are about 500 Blanka's at any one tournament in NorCal, another 500 at both SHGL tournaments, and there were about 500 more at Texas Showdown. Obviously not all of them, or even the majority of them, were top tier Blankas... yet not one person pulled out a solid Eagle and owned Blanka up for free. It's simply not as easy as you make it out to be. quote: But since you brought it up. That was the only time I've lost to either Cannon on any game. As I recall, you lost to Tony only weeks before at SVGL on your own sticks. I suppose his characters just beat yours? Everyone has a good day. I've never lost to Tony in a tournament. I think what you are trying to refer to is when I played Tom, on the machine where MK came out randomly on the left side, and HP+HK wouldn't activate on the right side (either way someone got screwed). It had nothing to do with a good day / bad day, and everyone at the tournament that day will tell you that the machine was messed up (including Alex Wolfe). quote: Imo, NoCa has little clue about Eagle. One dimensional mid-range sim play. There are counter match-ups that they will never have a shot at winning. Props to Tony on the match but...if that means that Eagle loses to Blanka then I suppose so does A-Groove Bison. You should know better than to judge from one match. Especially since I wasn't the only one with a machine preference. You don't have a machine preference if everyone feels solid about them all. I'm only here to comment about Eagle vs Blanka. I feel very comfortable w/ A-Bison vs Blanka, and I've performed very well in tournaments during that particular matchup. As for Eagle vs Blanka, there has been no real tournament evidence to suggest that Eagle beats Blanka in a dominant manner. On paper, the matchup looks solid, but any matchup can be portayed as winning / losing if you accentuate the positives and downplay the negatives. Again, the reason I brought up SHGL match was simply to point out that a relatively average Blanka has an easier time beating a "good" Eagle than the other way around. It's not an easy fight for Eagle, especially N-Blanka. quote: Basically, you might want more, and more reliable criteria to judge by. But I don't see you using Eagle or Blanka so...and you just lost to Tony weeks before(according to Nelson you were pretty pissed off). Tony's had some good matches and I gave him his props. I'd still put a bill down saying that Eagle will beat blanka. Just put down the money cuz, we all know, lightning doesn't strike twice. Apoc. My statements are based only on consistant results. I'm not saying you suck. I'm not saying Tony owns you for free. I'm simply saying that in all the tournaments I've seen in the last 4-5 months, no Eagle (really good or even just pretty good) has put a decently skilled... let alone REALLY good Blanka down. I'm also not saying it's impossible... just that it hasn't happened yet. ben Posted by Enk!ndu on 03:15:2002 12:22 AM: Blanka doesn't lose to Eagle in either c p n k or a-mode. He's far quicker than Eagle, imo, and I'll explain why. As eagle lacks a good wake up attack whereas blanka can use all of his supers as wake ups, and most of his special moves which can put him in a bad situation if the wake-up is blocked, but if you know that, you'd be cautious with your wake-up attacks. Any cross-up attempts coming from Eagle would have to be coming after a poke, because Eagle cannot crossup Blanka within Blankas poking distance becuase of Blankas jumping FP. Whereas Blanka can easily cross up Eagle with a superjump or trade a FP in air, possibly even out prioritizing it with an U/F+FP, which by the way puts Blanka right next to Eagle for a throw, and what comes after a throw with Blanka? Anybody know? Ever notice how Blankas' head almost completely disappears when he super jumps? That really seperates him from most others. His super-jump, especially in c-mode, get's him out of alot of trouble. Luck becomes a factor sometimes, but Blanka gets lucky way more than a world class Eagle in any groove would get. Blanka has many ways to attack. Eagle has to be timed and stratigec to win as a jumping, rolling, poking, turtling blanka is more deadly. It's not hard at all for Blanka to hit Eagle with a crossup because of his super jump. Once a crossup is made Blanka has several options to take off damage and even do big damage combos in that zone. Eagle should really watch out for Blankas jumping FP. Eagle definately has to play a ground game against Blanka. Blanka is like Sentinel, he owns the skies. Well, maybe Vega does since he has the super Barcelona drop but that's besides the point. That move even out-prioritizes Zangs air-super by the way. Any type of jump coming from Eagle is a risk. Eagle has to stay out of the air, unless its a short hop. Rolling isn't good against Blanka with Eagle. Unless you can predict a growling leap backward which is what I'd do since that puts Blanka right back into big damage zone from either side. I dunno, I'm pretty confident in Blankas abilty. He's more fun to play than Sagat too. Which is what playing CvS2 is all about. My opinion -Enk Posted by Ponder on 03:15:2002 01:00 AM: quote: Originally posted by tragic I've never lost to Tony in a tournament. ... Again, the reason I brought up SHGL match was simply to point out that a relatively average Blanka has an easier time beating a "good" Eagle than the other way around. It's not an easy fight for Eagle, especially N-Blanka. God damn. Can a brother get a little love? Posted by Enk!ndu on 03:15:2002 01:04 AM: I have to agree that bison vs blanka is in bisons favor for many reasons too. One being his super jump is faster than Blankas. Vega is a pain and Sagat has a serious edge against Blanka because he out reaches and out priotitizes him. Posted by tragic on 03:15:2002 01:05 AM: I love you a little bit. ben Posted by Apoc on 03:15:2002 04:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by tragic The reason I brought it up is because even back then, you were saying that Eagle beats Blanka with ease. It simply isn't the case. It has yet to be proven come tournament time, then, or now. There are about 500 Blanka's at any one tournament in NorCal, another 500 at both SHGL tournaments, and there were about 500 more at Texas Showdown. Obviously not all of them, or even the majority of them, were top tier Blankas... yet not one person pulled out a solid Eagle and owned Blanka up for free. It's simply not as easy as you make it out to be. I've never lost to Tony in a tournament. I think what you are trying to refer to is when I played Tom, on the machine where MK came out randomly on the left side, and HP+HK wouldn't activate on the right side (either way someone got screwed). It had nothing to do with a good day / bad day, and everyone at the tournament that day will tell you that the machine was messed up (including Alex Wolfe). I'm only here to comment about Eagle vs Blanka. I feel very comfortable w/ A-Bison vs Blanka, and I've performed very well in tournaments during that particular matchup. As for Eagle vs Blanka, there has been no real tournament evidence to suggest that Eagle beats Blanka in a dominant manner. On paper, the matchup looks solid, but any matchup can be portayed as winning / losing if you accentuate the positives and downplay the negatives. Again, the reason I brought up SHGL match was simply to point out that a relatively average Blanka has an easier time beating a "good" Eagle than the other way around. It's not an easy fight for Eagle, especially N-Blanka. My statements are based only on consistant results. I'm not saying you suck. I'm not saying Tony owns you for free. I'm simply saying that in all the tournaments I've seen in the last 4-5 months, no Eagle (really good or even just pretty good) has put a decently skilled... let alone REALLY good Blanka down. I'm also not saying it's impossible... just that it hasn't happened yet. ben I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that that particular tourney doesn't represent the match well considering my adjustment problems. Basically, without links and his large combos, C Eagle is reduced to mere poking. So...it will be plenty evident,I'm sure, soon enough. Apoc. Posted by cheese_master on 03:15:2002 10:37 AM: Apoc, Tragic, and Viscant... Out of curiosity... what are your thoughts on Guile vs Blanka? Take some of the more popular matchups between these two... C, N, and K Guile vs C, N, and K Blanka. I personally feel Guile has the edge over Blanka in any of his grooves over all Blankas cept K groove. K groove gives Guile some problems at times. I think Blanka gets hella owned by C groove Guile sitting his ass on a lvl3... cuz Blanka can't do shit (neither can like 3/4 the cast)... of course... if Blanka gets a lvl3... Guile can still throw cross screen SBs... and he can force Blanka to come to him... but I don't think there is a thing that can even threaten Guile to get guard broken from Blanka. IMO this match comes down to who has more life... and is hella shitty. IMO... Eagle can't beat N or K groove Blanka... because he has absolutely no good way to stop Blanka's lowjumps. Getting into that range isn't a problem for Blanka either... he has his hops... he can empty lowjump... and runs... Eagle can back dash all he wants to keep out of the range... but once he is in the corner... he is fucked. I was also wondering what people AA Blanka's j RH from max distance w/ Eagle... cuz I am having problems finding something that doesn't trade. I think Sagat loses to Blanka... Blanka being able to move in and out of his ranges no problem... and he can AA all of Sagat's low jumps no problem... so he doesn't have to fear his low jumps. Sagat is stuck to his "ground game" where Blanka beats him here with the ability to slide the cr FP... low jump FP the st FP and cr RH is damn good vs Sagat's low pokes. On the other hand Cammy's whore ass... beats Blanka... IMO. But she breaks even w/ Sagat. I still can't think of a good Cammy counter char... cuz Vega, Bison, Rog, Yama, Guile, and Rolento all have problems. Iori is decent vs her... I think he needs to be in A groove to beat her. Chun Li doesn't beat her either... maybe Todo does. If you guys believe u know of a char that beat her... lemme in on it. Thats all for me. Posted by Gandido on 03:15:2002 09:25 PM: quote: Originally posted by Ponder God damn. Can a brother get a little love? *gives Ponder a mad hug...manly tho* Posted by Laicram on 03:16:2002 01:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by Ponder God damn. Can a brother get a little love? I don't think Tragic is dissin. In this context, I'd translate average=doing everything right, and good=amazing. Heh. Marcial All times are GMT. The time now is 11:46 PM. Show all 56 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.